I'm pretty neat myself (play on words not intended), but I still end up in these kinds of situations.
This [wonderful] comic is like an omen. I need to invest in a suitably large keychain.
i'm not sure if we should know why mar is so upset or not, but i think she's like me; she bottles up her stress till she's about to burst from it, and then the stress of trying to hide it drives her to the breaking point, where every little thing feels like a federal fucking issue, especially when she expects people to be more perceptive than they are, or than they CAN be. "she should know i'm upset if i'm smoking," is a mild irritation at first, but when you're stuck in your head and you dwell on it for a while, it turns into, "good GOD, why does she keep offering me a FUCKING CIGARETTE, she's so OBTUSE, can't she see i don't WANT to smoke??? why is she so OBLIVIOUS to my fucking FEELINGS??"
then you argue, and you still feel like you're right, because you have all of this anger, and you feel it so strongly, so you MUST be right… right? poor mar probably has a host of emotions she's been ignoring.
yeah i feel like it's pretty easy for a lot of us to rashly judge mar here for being so seemingly stubborn and difficult but, everyone be honest with yourselves, how many times have you turned into this person when you felt overwhelmed and stressed out really suddenly, so much so that you no longer even had the ability to articulate your thoughts and could only hate the world around you as intensely as possible for making your life so unfair and miserable
"then you argue, and you still feel like you're right, because you have all of this anger, and you feel it so strongly, so you MUST be right… right?"
Been there…for me anyway it rarely (if ever these days) happens with friends, but sometimes it happens at work. And what's rough is that I actually think in those situations I *was* right, but bottled it up and let it out in such an unsympathetic way that it didn't matter…after a whole host of 'little' things I was expected to be okay with but wasn't.
Yea I think we are going to see the growth that's happened over the last while and Mar will see this episode for one of her weaknesses and theyll address it in a supportive and caring way. maybe even laugh about it all. If they dont then I have been reading this all wrong.
ok I clearly am missing something because now I cant even make much sense of Jane saying "you're not ON FIRE enough for me to chase you". is there a pun in there?
Cat
i think Jane means she would be chasing Mar if Mar was literally on fire, but the situation isn't that serious… yet.
Bertha
It took me a while too, but it's that Mar is running around madly like she's on fire, leaving Jane to chase after her because she won't stop and talk to her.
kickpass
it's just a weird turn of phrase. and the bolding made me overthink the emphasis
williamrwinters
One's too angry, and and her other half is going 'mad'. I guessed it had to be at least wordplay if not a pun, from her expression while saying it. Maybe I'm seeing something that isn't there.
Gav
Typically if a person is on fire the polite thing to do is to chase them down and extinguish them. This one really isn't a brain buster.
Yeah, but look at their faces in the last panel. Mar was hiding her face in her hands and now she looks like she's about to go berserk after Jane yells at her. Even Jane is like "fuuuuuck why did I say that"
I agree. I love both of them, so I hope this gets to be a growing pains/learning to communicate with each other fight, and not a huge relationship ending blow up
Mmm, I think she's already aware that she gets this way- remember when Marigold warned Jane about how 'intense' she could be? I'm pretty sure this is what we're seeing right now, and in that case then mar is probably going to really try to respond to this constructively once her emotional nadir passes. I just wonder if Jane is even prepared to engage in that kind of emotional labour.
"Perfect" people are boring my friend.
I would date Marigold anytime – at least someone like her who is showing who she is.
Also a more controversial comment… we don't see Will as a crazy person when he is having a breakdown with the pan on the wall, right?
Angry is always perceived as hysteric or pms or non-feminine when a woman expresses it. At least that's my feeling.
So true. I wish people would stop trying to be polite and make excuses with all that PMS and hormones nonsense. It would be so much better if we could all just admit the truth–that the wimmings is just cray cray 24/7. They's just covering it up most of the time.
Also, this proves what I've suspected all along. Mar isn't actually Bi, she's just playin'. Only straight women torture their partners with this kind of emotional whack-a-mole.
Rei
That's totally silly.
People are people regardless of gender expression or sexual orientation. Same sex relationships are just as fraught with communication problems and drama as straight relationships.
Discounting Mar's bisexuality or just her attraction to Jane based purely on a frustrated reaction to a frustrating day is not very cool.
I don't think there's such a thing as a perfect person. Nobody is, it's the nature of being human and only seeing from your own perspective. I don't think Marigold is 'showing who she is', I think she's lacking self awareness to the point where she can't tell she's attacking everyone around her irrationally. 'Rozie' a few posts up put it well in regards to her bottling it all up, which some people -do-, and that's okay, provided you're self aware enough to say "Hey, Jane, I'm feeling pretty shitty, it's not you I just need a breather. Catch you tomorrow, kay?"
This links in with your 'controversial' comment, which to be honest isn't that controversial and I see being posted all the time. Marigold isn't being seen as kind of a bitch in this situation because she's a woman and it's not okay for women to do that. It's because she's flipping out at everyone with no self awareness or control to protect those she loves and vent without damaging her life.
What Will had when he had his breakdowns was understanding from our perspective. I have no idea why Marigold has flipped her lid, but Will did it because Aimee emotionally ripped him a new one – and it was his own fault. He felt hurt, stupid, and powerless to fix it. Few people would have an easy time containing that. Yet even when he did flip out, he did it with those around him who at least understood what was going on with him. Even then, he took it out on a pan, not a person, and while the violence is never nice to be around, at least it's better than actively turning on somebody.
Maybe further into this arc we'll see why Marigold is so pent up, and we'll all go "oohhhh" and understand. But it still doesn't make it okay in my book. Because no matter what way you swing it, taking out your anger on uninvolved people is just a dick move.
Sophie
i don't see – in any possible way – how breaking up with a couple of months partner is not comparable to a shift in sexual orientation.
Really? I didn't see a good reason for Will to flip his lid – yes, he was emotionally hurt and it was his own fault but man, he's being deeply self-aware. He took it out on a pan physically but on…Hanna, I believe? Or was it Larry?- mentally. I do see a good reason for Mar flipping out – she's lost her best friend of many years and it was NOT her fault, and her girlfriend IS being a bit obtuse in continually offering her a cigarette (I don't think "you were smoking earlier" is a good reason for that when you know someone is trying to quit – in fact it's probably the worst possible time, if there ever is a good time, to offer a quitter a cig).
So I actually do agree with the above – people let Will off 'cause he's a dude. They're being harsh on Mar because she's a woman. Even though what she did wasn't cool – I agree – neither was what Will did. Yet we forgive that but not this.
The Hairy Coo
I think there is a difference in reaction to male/female eruptions, but I don't think that's the main reason I dislike Marigold's response more than Will's. It feels like Will is working toward a genuine epiphany, whereas Marigold's seems (to me at least) more ersatz, a self-help book facsimile of growth. I suspect Marigold will come to represent the friend you're saddened to realise you no longer share values with, the friend who focuses on the material…and the friend from whom you allow yourself to grow apart from.
TheHairyCoo
Well…I was wrong as hell here. I think I projected my disappointment at friends who had become "plastic" as life developed – only interested in material things and status. To be fair the "spa day" storyline tended to support that, but it was unfair of me to not allow Marigold a few wrong turns on the path to enlightenment.
I still think (hope) I would have been more forgiving on Marigold if she had dented the pan and harder on Will if he had taken it out on a close friend…but I can't be certain. The problem with unconscious bias is it's just that.
The irony is that I'm a complete nightmare for taking my frustrations out on those around me when I'm down/stressed…
Well, I kinda thought Will's pan-throw was crazy (and I appreciate how his emotional issues are paralleled in Mar).
But I can see how people wouldn't, they'd think "well he must be mad, and maybe he needs to work on emotional regulation" but they wouldn't imply nobody should ever date him again…but here someone is doing that to Mar. So I agree – it seems to only draw this kind of response when it's a woman who's pan-throwing mad.
If everybody wrote everybody else off as 'undateable' because they dared to have one emotional outburst despite working on their issues…we'd all be undateable. Even you, I bet. Personally, I'd forgive someone a breakdown like that as long as it wasn't a constant thing (which I don't think it is with Mar any longer), and definitely think it's important to fight back against the perception that women must either be perfect and in control and not emotional or angry at all times, or they are total write-offs. It's simply not true.
I think this is what I was worried about the "ease" of Jane and Mar's hook-up in the first place: that first moment you realize that the whole thing of a relationship is that it's a process through and through, and it's NOT easy, and even though you've been through such processes a million times you can still forget that difficulties are bound to come up sooner or later. And then you have to deal with those difficulties with whatever mindset of expectations you've set yourself up with.
So yeah, I was HOPING things would be as nice and smooth as they had claimed to be, but there were too many hints for me to sincerely EXPECT it.
Oh, and of course, Finagle's Law kicks in as is appropriate: "Anything that can go wrong, will—at the worst possible moment."
Yeah, I think what the switch back to Hannah/Marek helped establish is that we're still basically in the same long arc storywise that started with Marek's graduation. And having recently done the re-read one of the things that struck me poignantly was the bit where Marek's parents are talking to Eve and his mom says, "It's hard work, with love. Making it work." Which I feel is kind of a theme here.
Like they even explicitly talk about the "easy part" earlier. But Jane in particular doesn't understand that really; she was just telling Eve how effortless it all felt, which was a big trouble sign. Like Jane is this big romantic who wants to fall in love passionately and whole-heartedly, but she doesn't really know or anticipate all the nitty gritty work involved in actually making it work long term.
Mari is sort of the opposite. She is very hard-working. Her problem is being honest, with herself or others. She keeps her head down, compromises, wears this mask, bottles up her emotions.
I am fairly confident however that this arc involves them being together in the long term, both because it would be somewhat repetitive thematically and also because c'mon the ship's too perfectly named not to be destined.
I know nobody wants Hannah and Mar to be friends again. But more than anything right now I want to see them bump into each other unexpectedly, both pissed off about their current heartaches, and cry it out together.
Ha. I want Hanna and Marek to be a permanent breakup because in real life that's usually how it works. But I want Hanna to grow the eff up and for her and Mar to make up sometime in the future. I'm not sure I want that in the comic though, usually with those kinds of make-ups it happens years on. Maybe the barest hint of it before the strip ends. But no, I don't want them to never be friends again.
I do like the fact that Jane doesn't remain entirely submissive in this scenario, despite having been trying to placate Marigold before; she's fine with letting Marigold know how much she's pissing her off.
Oh, shit. I've been so hard on Marigold, but this part of her fight with Jane is too much like me and my sweetie when we first dated. I think we had almost the exact same fight. I was very Marigoldish—and yes, I agree—"Who would want to day her?" I was totally a people-pleasing volcanoing emo (in mentality) girl!
That was about 16 years ago and we've been married for most of it (oh, god I'm old). Now it feels so stupid and silly to fight like—even over bottled stress.
So many great comments on this one. I've read most of them through and they are all so thoughtful and thought provoking. I just love the community that reads Octopus Pie regularly 🙂
My comment is not nearly as good as the rest of these have been, so disclaimer.
The positioning of this page right after the last one with Hannah and Marek is great. Hannah and Marek were in love (are???) for so long, and they did their early relationship fights (presumably, though I can't really picture Marek fighting with ANYONE), they learned to communicate and to read each other ("I was stressed out earlier!" "Am I supposed to be attuned to your every thought?!?"), and to be there for each other even when it's not asked for. Mar and Jane are at the start of this whole thing. It's a hard road, and in the end even a relationship as strong as Hannah and Marek didn't make it. What happens next for both of these couples will decide a lot. What Marigold and Jane do now will decide if they break-up or if they can support each other even when they are being unlovable. That's a big hurdle to jump in new love, when you look at that person and you are so angry and so frustrated, but you choose to make it right and to give them love instead of rage. And how Hannah and Marek handle this interaction will decide if they can be friends and stay in each others lives, or if they need to be in the past. I can't wait to see the next installment!
That sort of curb grate is typically set into the asphault and doesn't lift up. However, a big nerd (which neither Mar or Jane are) might go to the nearest bodega and get string and a magnet and fish the keys out – the area under the grate is usually built to be a catch basin for stuff like this. Fwiw, I've done this more than once in my life with about a 50/50 sucess rate..
But practical dillemas aren't really something that either one of them is focused on right now. It's about Mar's (inevitable?) emotional dillema, and Jane isn't even aware what the real 'set of lost keys' is, yet.
I've been happily married for 11 years and I still occasionally have this sort of argument with my husband. Sometimes I'm Mar sometimes I'm Jane in this fight.
Nooooo! Come on! I just started reading this, how can I be up-to-date already-
Oh.
870 pages… Did I really only start this yesterday? Well, damn, now I'm hooked…
Also, poor guys… I was shipping this from the start, and now that it's happened, I finally realize how much I /don't/ want to see them hurt each other.
I have had that expression in almost the same kind of argument. That kind of "Oh… what have I gotten myself into?" along with a billion other ideas and emotions in the backround behind that question.
Including "I don't want to lose this" and "what the hell do I do now?"
I'd like to sort of go against the grain of everyone rushing to Mar's defense. She is an adult, she is capable of talking about what is bothering her and shouldn't feel like people should automatically know what's wrong – Jane pointed out as much. Mar is in the wrong and I don't think her outburst should be rationalized or pitied.
A lot of other characters in OP have shown a lot of personal growth but I think Mar's has only been on a superficial level. No one in the series is perfect but if she still hasn't gotten a handle on her emotions by this point then she may just be that kind of person: volatile and overemotional. Other characters of course have trouble dealing with emotions, we just saw Eve on an emotional Ferris-wheel, but the fact that Mar flies in the face of people trying to reason with her and generally has this kind of reaction is really unsavory.
thank god for you buddy
all the defense of marigold was really rubbing me the wrong way and you hit the nail on the head
marigold hasnt gotten any better about this since the beginning of the comic
she always flies off the handle when people are trying to understand her, help her, or rationalize with her and it's not ok
ive had mental breakdowns where the stress gets to me too but i know better than to take my anger out on other people
marigold isnt excused from her behavior at all
jane did absolutely nothing to deserve this all she was trying to do was help her and marigold completely lost it with her and it's not ok????
I'm with you both here.
Mar is just being immature. Being angry at life, doesn't mean its okay to take it out on people you "love."
Nobody should have to put up with your bullshit, and nobody has to help you through it. Whoever the lucky one receiving the crap though, CHOOSE to because they care. Emotional gaslighting ain't alright.
Seriously, Mar is pretty emotionally immature. I bet you if Will or Jane had done that, people would be in a hissy fit.
No sympathy for Mar, everyones keys have gotten fed up and gtfo at one point or another.
punkybird
"Seriously, Mar is pretty emotionally immature. I bet you if Will or Jane had done that, people would be in a hissy fit. "
Well, Jane did keep offering someone who is trying to quit a cigarette…it doesn't merit this outburst but that's not cool either. I probably would be all "will you please STOP offering me cigarettes? CHRIST" too in her shoes, though I wouldn't yell it.
True she is in the wrong here, but are you telling me that you've never had a bad day? Never had a day when little things like up until you explode at the person you love? I'm not saying it's a good thing to do, I've done it enough and I know I'm being a bitch and my husband calls me on it and then I calm down, apologise and move one. My husband has these kinds of days too, though being English it's less shouting and storming off and more passive aggressive and muttering. At the beginning of our relationship this happened a lot because we didn't know how to read each other yet. It got to the point where if one of had to walk away and calm down they would yell "banana" as a clue to the other of "let me walk away, I will come back when I'm not being an ass".
Now after 11 years married and 15 years a couple we don't need that. If I'm having a bad day I tell him (and my kid) "These things which aren't your fault are getting me stressed and grumpy so I'm going to go over here and be grumpy by myself for a bit" being English my husband isn't good with vocalising his feelings but I've learned to read him. I can tell when he's stressed or angry or upset based on if he clenches his jaw or gets too quiet etc. It's rare that we have a bad argument now. We still bicker but proper fights don't really happen.
Tl:dr Mar is being an ass but all people do this and couple have to work out if and how they deal with this. It's not that it's okay, it's that we've all been there.
I can truthfully tell you that yes, while I most certainly have had bad days that I could never imagine lashing out at my loved ones or even complete strangers. I would be shocked it any one of my friends or most of my family did so either. It's completely possible to have a handle on your emotions and deal with them in a productive – or at the very least not destructive – manner. The fact that Mar cannot do so and has shown a pattern of being unable to do so and uninterested in changing that is a character flaw.
Beth
Dude I would love not to have this flaw and I work HARD on not lashing out at loved ones but it still happens occasionally. Let's review what Mar is saying here, she hadn't called Jane names or said anything relationship destroying. She's stressed and getting loud because of that. Some people handle stress well and have a high threshold, other people do not. It doesn't excuse the behaviour, shouting is never a nice thing to do, but it is understandable. I'm 32 I was in my late twenties before I was able to communicate "I'm going to start yelling and being awful. I'm going to put on headphones and listen to podcasts until I calm down." It's honestly a side effect of anxiety. Still shitty for the other person but it can be difficult to learn to control. Jane is right to call Mar on it though, I always say to my husband and kid if I'm being unfair and rude to call me on it…and as I said: it's now rare.
I can't imagine doing that NOW, but in my early-to-mid-20s, I could and did. I grew up and grew out of it, as most people do, but these characters are younger than me by about 10 years, so…I empathize, because I've been there, and I forgive, because I grew out of it. You may be surprised to learn that the road to maturity is bumpier for some than others.
I don't think anyone is pitying her exactly. But every outburst – well, most – have some rationale. I don't see why it can't then be rationalized even if we all agree she is in the wrong (and I think generally we do).
What you are seeing is *empathy* because we've all been there. I like to think most people grow out of it, but some never do.
78 thoughts on “#869-870 – yeah wow it really sucks”
Oliver
BYE
Faye
I guess I'm the only weirdo who actually wraps my headphone cords neatly to avoid these kinds of situations ._.
Alex
See, I switched to bluetooth.
StephenM3
Often when I remove headphones it's at a moment where something needs my attention, so they just get stuffed in a pocket.
twerp
I'm pretty neat myself (play on words not intended), but I still end up in these kinds of situations.
This [wonderful] comic is like an omen. I need to invest in a suitably large keychain.
jfml
I'm doing this too, but it's SO BAAAD FOR THE CABLES (they say).
NemoProprius
No, you're not. I put 'em in their case after using them. Weirdo Club!!!
Gav
It's fun having a mental breakdown without even realizing it's happening until it's too late.
Señor
You and I have different definitions of fun.
rozie
i'm not sure if we should know why mar is so upset or not, but i think she's like me; she bottles up her stress till she's about to burst from it, and then the stress of trying to hide it drives her to the breaking point, where every little thing feels like a federal fucking issue, especially when she expects people to be more perceptive than they are, or than they CAN be. "she should know i'm upset if i'm smoking," is a mild irritation at first, but when you're stuck in your head and you dwell on it for a while, it turns into, "good GOD, why does she keep offering me a FUCKING CIGARETTE, she's so OBTUSE, can't she see i don't WANT to smoke??? why is she so OBLIVIOUS to my fucking FEELINGS??"
then you argue, and you still feel like you're right, because you have all of this anger, and you feel it so strongly, so you MUST be right… right? poor mar probably has a host of emotions she's been ignoring.
Jeanne628
Agreed. Also this is exactly the same thing that I do. Yay for bottling up stress and feelings!
And the dropping of the keys is just… reeeeeeally bad timing. Like could it have happened at a worse possible moment.
eff
yeah i feel like it's pretty easy for a lot of us to rashly judge mar here for being so seemingly stubborn and difficult but, everyone be honest with yourselves, how many times have you turned into this person when you felt overwhelmed and stressed out really suddenly, so much so that you no longer even had the ability to articulate your thoughts and could only hate the world around you as intensely as possible for making your life so unfair and miserable
I know I have! Probably a lot!
channamasala
Yup…but I'm getting better at it. I think Mar will too.
channamasala
"then you argue, and you still feel like you're right, because you have all of this anger, and you feel it so strongly, so you MUST be right… right?"
Been there…for me anyway it rarely (if ever these days) happens with friends, but sometimes it happens at work. And what's rough is that I actually think in those situations I *was* right, but bottled it up and let it out in such an unsympathetic way that it didn't matter…after a whole host of 'little' things I was expected to be okay with but wasn't.
Ahna
this kind of reply makes me feel like really perceptive and attuned people read this comic.
kickpass
Yea I think we are going to see the growth that's happened over the last while and Mar will see this episode for one of her weaknesses and theyll address it in a supportive and caring way. maybe even laugh about it all. If they dont then I have been reading this all wrong.
williamrwinters
Yeah, I think the fever broke in those last couple panels. Wonderfully dumb puns :3
kickpass
ok I clearly am missing something because now I cant even make much sense of Jane saying "you're not ON FIRE enough for me to chase you". is there a pun in there?
Cat
i think Jane means she would be chasing Mar if Mar was literally on fire, but the situation isn't that serious… yet.
Bertha
It took me a while too, but it's that Mar is running around madly like she's on fire, leaving Jane to chase after her because she won't stop and talk to her.
kickpass
it's just a weird turn of phrase. and the bolding made me overthink the emphasis
williamrwinters
One's too angry, and and her other half is going 'mad'. I guessed it had to be at least wordplay if not a pun, from her expression while saying it. Maybe I'm seeing something that isn't there.
Gav
Typically if a person is on fire the polite thing to do is to chase them down and extinguish them. This one really isn't a brain buster.
Lucille
Yeah, but look at their faces in the last panel. Mar was hiding her face in her hands and now she looks like she's about to go berserk after Jane yells at her. Even Jane is like "fuuuuuck why did I say that"
Anna
I agree. I love both of them, so I hope this gets to be a growing pains/learning to communicate with each other fight, and not a huge relationship ending blow up
mantis girl
Mmm, I think she's already aware that she gets this way- remember when Marigold warned Jane about how 'intense' she could be? I'm pretty sure this is what we're seeing right now, and in that case then mar is probably going to really try to respond to this constructively once her emotional nadir passes. I just wonder if Jane is even prepared to engage in that kind of emotional labour.
wuuuuuuuuut
Why do people still try to date Marigold?
I mean, what the fuck.
Kikadper
Sometimes love is love, man.
Laura
Because shockingly, people can see things in other people that you can't.
Sophie
"Perfect" people are boring my friend.
I would date Marigold anytime – at least someone like her who is showing who she is.
Also a more controversial comment… we don't see Will as a crazy person when he is having a breakdown with the pan on the wall, right?
Angry is always perceived as hysteric or pms or non-feminine when a woman expresses it. At least that's my feeling.
S. De Beauvoir
So true. I wish people would stop trying to be polite and make excuses with all that PMS and hormones nonsense. It would be so much better if we could all just admit the truth–that the wimmings is just cray cray 24/7. They's just covering it up most of the time.
Also, this proves what I've suspected all along. Mar isn't actually Bi, she's just playin'. Only straight women torture their partners with this kind of emotional whack-a-mole.
Rei
That's totally silly.
People are people regardless of gender expression or sexual orientation. Same sex relationships are just as fraught with communication problems and drama as straight relationships.
Discounting Mar's bisexuality or just her attraction to Jane based purely on a frustrated reaction to a frustrating day is not very cool.
oh… and she's not crazy….
rozie
wow
Laurie
I don't think there's such a thing as a perfect person. Nobody is, it's the nature of being human and only seeing from your own perspective. I don't think Marigold is 'showing who she is', I think she's lacking self awareness to the point where she can't tell she's attacking everyone around her irrationally. 'Rozie' a few posts up put it well in regards to her bottling it all up, which some people -do-, and that's okay, provided you're self aware enough to say "Hey, Jane, I'm feeling pretty shitty, it's not you I just need a breather. Catch you tomorrow, kay?"
This links in with your 'controversial' comment, which to be honest isn't that controversial and I see being posted all the time. Marigold isn't being seen as kind of a bitch in this situation because she's a woman and it's not okay for women to do that. It's because she's flipping out at everyone with no self awareness or control to protect those she loves and vent without damaging her life.
What Will had when he had his breakdowns was understanding from our perspective. I have no idea why Marigold has flipped her lid, but Will did it because Aimee emotionally ripped him a new one – and it was his own fault. He felt hurt, stupid, and powerless to fix it. Few people would have an easy time containing that. Yet even when he did flip out, he did it with those around him who at least understood what was going on with him. Even then, he took it out on a pan, not a person, and while the violence is never nice to be around, at least it's better than actively turning on somebody.
Maybe further into this arc we'll see why Marigold is so pent up, and we'll all go "oohhhh" and understand. But it still doesn't make it okay in my book. Because no matter what way you swing it, taking out your anger on uninvolved people is just a dick move.
Sophie
i don't see – in any possible way – how breaking up with a couple of months partner is not comparable to a shift in sexual orientation.
channamasala
Really? I didn't see a good reason for Will to flip his lid – yes, he was emotionally hurt and it was his own fault but man, he's being deeply self-aware. He took it out on a pan physically but on…Hanna, I believe? Or was it Larry?- mentally. I do see a good reason for Mar flipping out – she's lost her best friend of many years and it was NOT her fault, and her girlfriend IS being a bit obtuse in continually offering her a cigarette (I don't think "you were smoking earlier" is a good reason for that when you know someone is trying to quit – in fact it's probably the worst possible time, if there ever is a good time, to offer a quitter a cig).
So I actually do agree with the above – people let Will off 'cause he's a dude. They're being harsh on Mar because she's a woman. Even though what she did wasn't cool – I agree – neither was what Will did. Yet we forgive that but not this.
The Hairy Coo
I think there is a difference in reaction to male/female eruptions, but I don't think that's the main reason I dislike Marigold's response more than Will's. It feels like Will is working toward a genuine epiphany, whereas Marigold's seems (to me at least) more ersatz, a self-help book facsimile of growth. I suspect Marigold will come to represent the friend you're saddened to realise you no longer share values with, the friend who focuses on the material…and the friend from whom you allow yourself to grow apart from.
TheHairyCoo
Well…I was wrong as hell here. I think I projected my disappointment at friends who had become "plastic" as life developed – only interested in material things and status. To be fair the "spa day" storyline tended to support that, but it was unfair of me to not allow Marigold a few wrong turns on the path to enlightenment.
I still think (hope) I would have been more forgiving on Marigold if she had dented the pan and harder on Will if he had taken it out on a close friend…but I can't be certain. The problem with unconscious bias is it's just that.
The irony is that I'm a complete nightmare for taking my frustrations out on those around me when I'm down/stressed…
channamasala
Well, I kinda thought Will's pan-throw was crazy (and I appreciate how his emotional issues are paralleled in Mar).
But I can see how people wouldn't, they'd think "well he must be mad, and maybe he needs to work on emotional regulation" but they wouldn't imply nobody should ever date him again…but here someone is doing that to Mar. So I agree – it seems to only draw this kind of response when it's a woman who's pan-throwing mad.
Edamessiah
Everyone is worth loving
channamasala
If everybody wrote everybody else off as 'undateable' because they dared to have one emotional outburst despite working on their issues…we'd all be undateable. Even you, I bet. Personally, I'd forgive someone a breakdown like that as long as it wasn't a constant thing (which I don't think it is with Mar any longer), and definitely think it's important to fight back against the perception that women must either be perfect and in control and not emotional or angry at all times, or they are total write-offs. It's simply not true.
Spectacles
I think this is what I was worried about the "ease" of Jane and Mar's hook-up in the first place: that first moment you realize that the whole thing of a relationship is that it's a process through and through, and it's NOT easy, and even though you've been through such processes a million times you can still forget that difficulties are bound to come up sooner or later. And then you have to deal with those difficulties with whatever mindset of expectations you've set yourself up with.
So yeah, I was HOPING things would be as nice and smooth as they had claimed to be, but there were too many hints for me to sincerely EXPECT it.
Oh, and of course, Finagle's Law kicks in as is appropriate: "Anything that can go wrong, will—at the worst possible moment."
jackelgin
Yeah, I think what the switch back to Hannah/Marek helped establish is that we're still basically in the same long arc storywise that started with Marek's graduation. And having recently done the re-read one of the things that struck me poignantly was the bit where Marek's parents are talking to Eve and his mom says, "It's hard work, with love. Making it work." Which I feel is kind of a theme here.
Like they even explicitly talk about the "easy part" earlier. But Jane in particular doesn't understand that really; she was just telling Eve how effortless it all felt, which was a big trouble sign. Like Jane is this big romantic who wants to fall in love passionately and whole-heartedly, but she doesn't really know or anticipate all the nitty gritty work involved in actually making it work long term.
Mari is sort of the opposite. She is very hard-working. Her problem is being honest, with herself or others. She keeps her head down, compromises, wears this mask, bottles up her emotions.
I am fairly confident however that this arc involves them being together in the long term, both because it would be somewhat repetitive thematically and also because c'mon the ship's too perfectly named not to be destined.
jeybork
Fantastic colors.
peakpointmatrix
aww their first(?) fight you guys <3
Bigfoot
Your love is like, a roller-coaster baby baby
Jojo
I know nobody wants Hannah and Mar to be friends again. But more than anything right now I want to see them bump into each other unexpectedly, both pissed off about their current heartaches, and cry it out together.
channamasala
Ha. I want Hanna and Marek to be a permanent breakup because in real life that's usually how it works. But I want Hanna to grow the eff up and for her and Mar to make up sometime in the future. I'm not sure I want that in the comic though, usually with those kinds of make-ups it happens years on. Maybe the barest hint of it before the strip ends. But no, I don't want them to never be friends again.
Ceceoh
Soooo, I guess she hasn't given Jane a key, yet? Yeah…
RDM
I do like the fact that Jane doesn't remain entirely submissive in this scenario, despite having been trying to placate Marigold before; she's fine with letting Marigold know how much she's pissing her off.
Dotcom
Oh, shit. I've been so hard on Marigold, but this part of her fight with Jane is too much like me and my sweetie when we first dated. I think we had almost the exact same fight. I was very Marigoldish—and yes, I agree—"Who would want to day her?" I was totally a people-pleasing volcanoing emo (in mentality) girl!
That was about 16 years ago and we've been married for most of it (oh, god I'm old). Now it feels so stupid and silly to fight like—even over bottled stress.
Booga
So many great comments on this one. I've read most of them through and they are all so thoughtful and thought provoking. I just love the community that reads Octopus Pie regularly 🙂
My comment is not nearly as good as the rest of these have been, so disclaimer.
The positioning of this page right after the last one with Hannah and Marek is great. Hannah and Marek were in love (are???) for so long, and they did their early relationship fights (presumably, though I can't really picture Marek fighting with ANYONE), they learned to communicate and to read each other ("I was stressed out earlier!" "Am I supposed to be attuned to your every thought?!?"), and to be there for each other even when it's not asked for. Mar and Jane are at the start of this whole thing. It's a hard road, and in the end even a relationship as strong as Hannah and Marek didn't make it. What happens next for both of these couples will decide a lot. What Marigold and Jane do now will decide if they break-up or if they can support each other even when they are being unlovable. That's a big hurdle to jump in new love, when you look at that person and you are so angry and so frustrated, but you choose to make it right and to give them love instead of rage. And how Hannah and Marek handle this interaction will decide if they can be friends and stay in each others lives, or if they need to be in the past. I can't wait to see the next installment!
Gfunk
that was pretty insightful
Robert
Why not just pry up the grate and look around in the sewer? As in the joke about the mysterious card…
jeff
That sort of curb grate is typically set into the asphault and doesn't lift up. However, a big nerd (which neither Mar or Jane are) might go to the nearest bodega and get string and a magnet and fish the keys out – the area under the grate is usually built to be a catch basin for stuff like this. Fwiw, I've done this more than once in my life with about a 50/50 sucess rate..
But practical dillemas aren't really something that either one of them is focused on right now. It's about Mar's (inevitable?) emotional dillema, and Jane isn't even aware what the real 'set of lost keys' is, yet.
Ceceoh
I'd go for some gum and a broom handle. But then, I couldn't afford to pay a locksmith. Especially after midnight.
TRA
If you can see the keys- you can try some fishing line, + some fish hooks, too.
Beth
I've been happily married for 11 years and I still occasionally have this sort of argument with my husband. Sometimes I'm Mar sometimes I'm Jane in this fight.
Hal Troape
Nooooo! Come on! I just started reading this, how can I be up-to-date already-
Oh.
870 pages… Did I really only start this yesterday? Well, damn, now I'm hooked…
Also, poor guys… I was shipping this from the start, and now that it's happened, I finally realize how much I /don't/ want to see them hurt each other.
JackPoint
That expression on Jane's face at the end.
I have had that expression in almost the same kind of argument. That kind of "Oh… what have I gotten myself into?" along with a billion other ideas and emotions in the backround behind that question.
Including "I don't want to lose this" and "what the hell do I do now?"
Nelson
I'd like to sort of go against the grain of everyone rushing to Mar's defense. She is an adult, she is capable of talking about what is bothering her and shouldn't feel like people should automatically know what's wrong – Jane pointed out as much. Mar is in the wrong and I don't think her outburst should be rationalized or pitied.
A lot of other characters in OP have shown a lot of personal growth but I think Mar's has only been on a superficial level. No one in the series is perfect but if she still hasn't gotten a handle on her emotions by this point then she may just be that kind of person: volatile and overemotional. Other characters of course have trouble dealing with emotions, we just saw Eve on an emotional Ferris-wheel, but the fact that Mar flies in the face of people trying to reason with her and generally has this kind of reaction is really unsavory.
Sesel
thank god for you buddy
all the defense of marigold was really rubbing me the wrong way and you hit the nail on the head
marigold hasnt gotten any better about this since the beginning of the comic
she always flies off the handle when people are trying to understand her, help her, or rationalize with her and it's not ok
ive had mental breakdowns where the stress gets to me too but i know better than to take my anger out on other people
marigold isnt excused from her behavior at all
jane did absolutely nothing to deserve this all she was trying to do was help her and marigold completely lost it with her and it's not ok????
K-Bar
I'm with you both here.
Mar is just being immature. Being angry at life, doesn't mean its okay to take it out on people you "love."
Nobody should have to put up with your bullshit, and nobody has to help you through it. Whoever the lucky one receiving the crap though, CHOOSE to because they care. Emotional gaslighting ain't alright.
Seriously, Mar is pretty emotionally immature. I bet you if Will or Jane had done that, people would be in a hissy fit.
No sympathy for Mar, everyones keys have gotten fed up and gtfo at one point or another.
punkybird
"Seriously, Mar is pretty emotionally immature. I bet you if Will or Jane had done that, people would be in a hissy fit. "
I may be biased because I remember everything, but
http://www.octopuspie.com/2015-04-23/774-775-over… http://www.octopuspie.com/2015-07-18/806-a-teeter…
channamasala
Well, Jane did keep offering someone who is trying to quit a cigarette…it doesn't merit this outburst but that's not cool either. I probably would be all "will you please STOP offering me cigarettes? CHRIST" too in her shoes, though I wouldn't yell it.
Beth
True she is in the wrong here, but are you telling me that you've never had a bad day? Never had a day when little things like up until you explode at the person you love? I'm not saying it's a good thing to do, I've done it enough and I know I'm being a bitch and my husband calls me on it and then I calm down, apologise and move one. My husband has these kinds of days too, though being English it's less shouting and storming off and more passive aggressive and muttering. At the beginning of our relationship this happened a lot because we didn't know how to read each other yet. It got to the point where if one of had to walk away and calm down they would yell "banana" as a clue to the other of "let me walk away, I will come back when I'm not being an ass".
Now after 11 years married and 15 years a couple we don't need that. If I'm having a bad day I tell him (and my kid) "These things which aren't your fault are getting me stressed and grumpy so I'm going to go over here and be grumpy by myself for a bit" being English my husband isn't good with vocalising his feelings but I've learned to read him. I can tell when he's stressed or angry or upset based on if he clenches his jaw or gets too quiet etc. It's rare that we have a bad argument now. We still bicker but proper fights don't really happen.
Tl:dr Mar is being an ass but all people do this and couple have to work out if and how they deal with this. It's not that it's okay, it's that we've all been there.
Nelson
I can truthfully tell you that yes, while I most certainly have had bad days that I could never imagine lashing out at my loved ones or even complete strangers. I would be shocked it any one of my friends or most of my family did so either. It's completely possible to have a handle on your emotions and deal with them in a productive – or at the very least not destructive – manner. The fact that Mar cannot do so and has shown a pattern of being unable to do so and uninterested in changing that is a character flaw.
Beth
Dude I would love not to have this flaw and I work HARD on not lashing out at loved ones but it still happens occasionally. Let's review what Mar is saying here, she hadn't called Jane names or said anything relationship destroying. She's stressed and getting loud because of that. Some people handle stress well and have a high threshold, other people do not. It doesn't excuse the behaviour, shouting is never a nice thing to do, but it is understandable. I'm 32 I was in my late twenties before I was able to communicate "I'm going to start yelling and being awful. I'm going to put on headphones and listen to podcasts until I calm down." It's honestly a side effect of anxiety. Still shitty for the other person but it can be difficult to learn to control. Jane is right to call Mar on it though, I always say to my husband and kid if I'm being unfair and rude to call me on it…and as I said: it's now rare.
channamasala
I can't imagine doing that NOW, but in my early-to-mid-20s, I could and did. I grew up and grew out of it, as most people do, but these characters are younger than me by about 10 years, so…I empathize, because I've been there, and I forgive, because I grew out of it. You may be surprised to learn that the road to maturity is bumpier for some than others.
Laurie
Finally. Thank you.
channamasala
I don't think anyone is pitying her exactly. But every outburst – well, most – have some rationale. I don't see why it can't then be rationalized even if we all agree she is in the wrong (and I think generally we do).
What you are seeing is *empathy* because we've all been there. I like to think most people grow out of it, but some never do.
Aubrey
The guy with the Canada Goose jacket WOULD say that
nova
From #852
Jane: "I didn't know loving someone could be so effortless. I thought anything worthwhile was a struggle… a matter of time and merit."
Welcome to the effort and struggle.